Nikola Tamindzic is a photographer based in New York’s Lower East Side, who is also responsible for the cover of Coming & Crying. I first saw his photos on Gawker & Jezebel, and then darting across Tumblr in rapid reblogs. Though we’ve shared common friends and company (literally, we’ve covered a few parties together for Gawker), how we originally connected was when I modeled for him, a few days after arriving in New York myself.
I’ve already gone a bit into how we began collaborating on Coming & Crying before we knew that’s quite what we were engaged in. For the sake of this public interview, I wanted to ask him more about how he approaches sex in his work, especially in his portraits, because I wished I had the same license myself in my writing — of having the object before you, even if she looks like a person, understood by one’s audience as a model, as a character, even if it’s you. Or in this case, me.
After a twilight discussion in a little bar in the East Village (on shattering champagne saucers, and why it’s possibly ridiculous that my iPhone is what I chose to record this interview on), we got to talk around all of that for about two hours. Here’s the first 12 minutes.
MGG: You said that you don’t really shoot sex, and I agree.
NT: No, I haven’t. I have done that a couple of times, but I didn’t find it terribly interesting. It’s a photographic truth — the whole “Blow Up” thing? The photographer riding the model and like getting good photos? No. You aren’t going to get anything.
MGG: If you’re an actor in it. But you’ve shot couples.
NT: Even with that, I feel like, perhaps I get the most natural results by posing the fuck out of everything, rather than the other way around, when people are really going at it —
MGG: They’re not necessarily present.
NT: That’s just my experience, I didn’t find that — I thought the experience was an end in itself — rather than the photos.
MGG: But watching people having sex, when your job isn’t necessarily to be involved?
NT: Yes, plus, I kill erections — like (*snap*) —
MGG: You kill erections?
NT: Well. Another guy in the room will kill your erection in no time if he’s not involved in any way.
MGG: When I’ve shot people having sex, that was as a pornographer. I had a different set of expectations going in. The couple that I shot was crazy in love, but that wasn’t what was supposed to get on the camera. I wanted it, but I know that only a fraction of my audience in that context would care about anything like that.
NT: But it’s not the kind of process that I’m interested anymore. I think there’s too much process and not enough result. And I may be terribly old-fashioned, by preferring the outcome to the process — like, we all are full of amazing stories about how great the shoot was, and how this interaction was so great, and blah blah blah blah blah, and all we have are three shitty photos to show for it. I don’t really care for that kind of thing. I would like something to be memorable.
So the question is, why do you do this?
MGG: Why do you want to shoot sex?
NT: Why would you want to? Not for your own titillation, because it’s the obvious thing. You can get over that. You want to see if that’s all you’re interested in. You are naturally curious about what lies behind it.
But I feel what lies behind it is what you and I made. What I did in that month with some other people as well — and you’ve seen the other photos so you know where that was going.
What is sex about? It’s about abandon. It’s about something falling out of you — or, into you. Which is why there was — I don’t know how quite to put it, but that slight glistening of water, implying something being born. Your photos were able to go both ways — you were not quite sure if something is being born, or is giving birth.
MGG: Now I can see that, especially in the second one that you posted, that was so hard —
NT: The second one specifically has that thing. Which is why I cared about it. It’s mysterious to me. It’s confusing to me. It was not — it wasn’t even a sexual situation, but I responded to it in that way, because something was happening that was in you.
MGG: And not anything really planned. And that’s the thing which almost makes it more true to sex, rather than going in and saying, we’re going to position you this way, and then turn you this way, and then we’re going to get this…
NT: Yes. It is finding something that would be true to the essence of it, while still going back to the aesthetic that I want to work with. I like sex shot in a blurry, messy way — natural light, maybe black and white — because I think that’s how we experience it. It is a blur. But that’s not what I’m looking for. I might be interested in doing that in 20 years, or two years. But now, I’m interested in this.
That’s more or less it. We’re delirious (this is Melissa) and still listening to George Michael and Patti Smith and other artists with two names that you might like so come into this chatroom and have a dance party with us. In just words.
http://tinychat.com/comingandcrying
edited to add: “No dicks.” (meaghan)
Tonight, the man (the myth, the legend) who is responsible for our breathtaking video, Carlo deJesus, who is very talented and very nice and generally the best, posted the director’s cut.
There is a missing scene included and coloring and all sorts of good stuff. We were just trading emails about the whole process, looking back at how much our vision grew from our first sitdown, and remember how serious we learned to take ourselves, and how much luck played a role in the making of it,
It’s beautiful how it just came together. You guys put that simple post about asking for help, and i’ve never volunteered to help ‘strangers’ out for a random video job (i don’t even do paid jobs for people i don’t know), but for some reason i was eager to help out and just volunteer. I think it was partly because a few days before i responded to that post, i was talking to a friend of mine at a bar and we were talking about work and art and how things just happen when you put yourself out there. If we hadn’t had that conversation, then i doubt i would have just volunteered to help out randomly.
There isn’t much time left to our fundraising, although there is still lots of book left to make and always more coming and crying to do, right everybody? Ha!
My chest is tight; I’m thanking people and answering questions and it’s all becoming very real suddenly. I’ve said that a lot but I guess with any big project, the reality hits us in waves.
This week has been a big week for us in lots of ways, not the least of which is that we’ve gotten almost all of the stories now. Each one is a little revelation unto itself, and I am so BOWLED OVER and in awe of each of them. They are all almost too much. Once we put them together in a book— this thing will hit you like a punch in the gut. And a hug! A punch and a hug (not that I advocate that).
It’s an amazing thing, this Kickstarter deal. My friend Emily was just saying how, Wow, we completely sidestepped so many things in publishing, that we didn’t wait for anyone to give us permission, to knight us as Authors or Editors or Publishers or any of that. Which is true, there is no Man or Middle Man or any of that.
But our permission— which isn’t really permission at all, but support, and encouragement; our very ability to do this, all comes from you guys.
And that is really cool.
We were on the Kickstarter podcast!
From the beginning of Coming & Crying, we were struck by what an amazing job Meaghan and Melissa did of putting themselves into their project. Being a backer was far more than a financial transaction; you really felt a part of their vision.
We invited Meaghan and Melissa down to the Kickstarter offices a few weeks ago to discuss their success, the origins of their project, and whether their parents knew what they were up to. Unsurprisingly it was an awesome conversation, and we came away inspired by their passion and excited to see how their project would grow.
I was afraid to listen to it all day because the sound of my own voice terrifies me, but when I finally did, I was really happy with the way it turned out. A few people have told us that it helped cement all of our intentions and what we are driving at, so if you are looking for that or looking to share this with someone, it might be a good place to start (also, bonus! we read!)
Um ALSO if you do not read my blog (which I can’t really imagine why not?!)(jk), Her Holiness Miranda July emailed me back (see below), and I literally screamed at work. SCREAMED.
I’m flying back to New York (this is mgg) and Meaghan and I just made this spreadsheet, like the ones we’ve got all the C&C contributions sorted in, that one day we realized we could use to chat in (I think we were giving each other a hard time about the fact that we were chatting in both gchat, which is bad enough, and a spreadsheet).
And for the next three hours or so, while I’m still airborne, we’re going to hang on this spreadsheet (insofar as one can) and write with you, our backers.
We made a prompt to make it easier:
“What thought — that you can put into words — crossed your mind the last time you came, or cried, or both? (Don’t tell us which it was.)”
You can answer completely anonymously. And if you choose a name we can call you (which can be the anonymous number Google assigns you) we can talk to you over on the chat window.
If you want to tell folks to join us, they can give us a buck and do so. (Hi, new backers.)
One rule: Like the book, and the spirit of the book, you can be as ridiculous or awkward as you want, as long as you are honest.
We know that we’d like to share this document outside this backers-only circle after we’re done with it tonight — possibly at our secret-ish post-project get together in New York this week. (Which a $1 pledge will also get you an invite to. Because we kind of want “people everywhere who have sex and have feelings” to take part in this.)
Here’s to the final 24 — !
Matthew Gallaway lives in Washington Heights with his three internet famous cats, Dante, Zephyr, and Elektra, his partner, Stephen, and the George Washington Bridge. Melissa and I have fallen in love with the bits of his life he shares with us on Tumblr, but lucky for us, and the world, he has written a novel, called The Metropolis Case, which will be published by Crown in 2011. Even luckier for us, he agreed to contribute to Coming and Crying, with a story that made me cry in a coffee shop. I can’t wait for everyone to read it.
We emailed yesterday about the book, scratching on the surface of sex and storytelling and what it all means:
Q: So I have heard you, or read you, say that the world would be a better place if everyone who was behooved to write a book wrote one. What are some of the benefits, do you think, to sitting with yourself and sort of daring to do that? What did you learn— or what does writing do for you, on an individual level, on a capital-S Self level?
A: For me, I think the major benefit of writing — to put in psychoanalytical terms (I’m a big Jungian!) — is that it offers the opportunity to connect with and interpret one’s ‘unconscious,’ to have greater insight into why we act the way we do (because let’s face it: it’s often a mystery, particularly when we’re young!), with the hope that by doing so, we become more ‘human’ and perhaps even more rational, i.e., less reactive. Of course I’m not saying that to write a book is the ONLY way to do this, but I think it would be very difficult on some level to write one (or at least a novel) without some understanding of who we are at a very fundamental level, which can also be important in terms of developing a sense of empathy both for ourselves and others. In my case, I grew up as something of a bookworm and always had urges to write — I kept diaries and notebooks and things — but it was not until I ‘came out’ (to give one obvious example) that I developed the patience to write anything cohesive, to really tell stories, so to speak, and I think that’s probably because I was better able to decipher my own, if that makes sense. So when I talk about the world being a better place if more people wrote books, it refers to the idea that if more of us could afford the luxury (and unfortunately, it often is a luxury, given the demands — often painful — of daily life) of introspection and creation, I think it would lead to a more rational and considerate society.
Q: Now, we found each other on Tumblr. I started following you a few months ago and the little bits from your life you share almost always put me in a better mood. I think it’s very real, the way inviting people into our lives like that can affect us. So what about community? with this book, the community aspect is pretty vital. I know that reading my friends writing, or someone i admire, when they open up, helps me feel okay about doing the same. With all of the internet feedback, you can literally be encouraged to share when you wouldn’t otherwise. (and clearly this goes both ways). Does it help you, reading other people’s writing online (and off), to open up, too?
A: I should start by saying that ‘community’ is one of my least favorite words, because I think it’s too often used to pigeonhole people into groups in which they may not belong, or only on the most superficial or stereotypical level, e.g., I almost always cringe when I hear someone say ‘the gay community believes that ____’ or the ‘international community is upset that ____.’ That said, I understand what you’re saying and I would probably frame it terms of empathy or — to use the terminology of the literary critic/philosopher Richard Rorty, who is one of my heroes — ‘solidarity.’ To read others’ words and stories, I think, is one of the best ways we can not only develop our own language, but also to understand why we should recognize the fundamental humanity of another person or group of people; in Rorty’s view, the novel has been one of the great means by which our society has learned both to empathize with those who in the past would have been considered ‘outsiders’ (or even less than human) for whatever reason (gender, sexual orientation, ethnicity the most obvious), but also to understand humanity’s capacity for cruelty to one another (Nabokov and Orwell are two examples of this kind of writer). So in short, yes, I think reading (and respecting) the work of others (whether it’s a novel or an essay or a lolcat tumblr post) is absolutely essential in terms of ‘opening’ myself up to the viewpoint of others, and perhaps — as a second step — to incorporate their story/vocabulary into my own. (Rorty classifies those of us who are always searching for language like this as ‘ironists.’)
Q: A lot of our philosophy re: the book is grounded in the belief that storytelling eradicates shame and fosters compassion (to risk sounding utterly newnice), and that we dare each other on, so to speak, support each other, so that things have historically been not-so-easy to talk about, don’t hold so much discursive power, and can be seen more as they are— tough, wonderful, funny, sweet, scared— etc. have you felt that way? does that inform any of your writing?
A: OMG I think I just answered that, but yes — compassion is absolutely an element in all of this. I think this ‘newnice’ debate is interesting, and I happen to hate the term ‘nice’ because of course it’s rooted in a naivete or ignorance; I would rather think of it as the new-don’t-be-an-asshole movement, because I think such terminology is less likely to provoke people in the way ‘nice’ does (i.e., just to be labeled ‘nice’ makes me want to be an asshole on some level?) Now, I’m not a believer in any kind of fundamental ‘truth’ — at least in the German Romantic sense of the term (although I have been tempted many times, because I love Schopenhauer) — but I do believe that we as a society are capable of being less cruel, and part of this is rooted in the kind of compassion that I think you’re referring to, a sense of encouraging ALL people to tell their stories and to feel secure in doing so. This has been the fundamental arc of western civilization, I think — unless you want to be completely pessimistic about it, which is DEPRESSING — but we still have a long way to go. With regard to my own writing, I think that this has been a major theme, with the most obvious example presenting myself (or some of my characters) as non-heterosexuals, but with a thought to get beneath it to their fundamental humanity, a capacity to love or hate or grieve or whatever else it is that makes us human. I personally believe that this view of compassion will eventually extend to other species as well, whether this means cats or trees or whatever else will ensure a more ‘balanced’ and ‘humane’ way of life going forward. (I think I probably just WAY out ‘newniced’ you, lol, but I can be a bit of a sentimental hippie at times!)
Q: What do you think about writing about sex? you do it in your novel, right? have any philosophy about it or The State of Sex in Literature?
A: Writing about sex is difficult for me personally, but I’ve gotten better at it and I absolutely believe that it’s important in terms of developing a sense of compassion or empathy for those who don’t share our inclinations. One of my own goals in writing about sex is not to ‘turn on’ anyone in an erotic sense (that’s what porn is for) but to basically demonstrate to readers that the character is fundamentally human and that their desires, as such, should not be mocked any more or less than anyone else’s. I think this is really where literary craft can play an essential role, because a good writer can pull this off with great passion or humor or whatever else, so that (again) we as readers lose sight of the fact that it’s a gay/straight/man/woman/whatever and is just a person, like the reader. In terms of the State of Sex in literature, it’s difficult for me to separate the question from the State of Gay Literature, which I think with a few exceptions is frankly abysmal in the modern era. I don’t believe that the ‘gay voice’ has been adequately recognized as a component of the post-war American literary canon, and needs to be taught in the same way that the works of ethic minorities and women are (although there remain great strides to be taken here as well, obv); what’s particularly ironic about this state of affairs is that so many of the early titans of the form (Melville, Proust, Henry James, Virginia Woolf, Thomas Mann, to name a few) were all non-heterosexuals, and this tradition was largely eradicated in the post-war era and frankly has yet to recover (Alan Hollinghurst, Michael Cunningham, Jeanette Winterson, Andrew Holleran, Edmund White and other post-war heroes of mine notwithstanding). But I don’t want to be TOO NEGATIVE because I myself wrote a novel with several gay characters at its core (oh, and cats!) and it was sold to a major publishing house, and not once did anyone say: ‘oh, you’d better turn down the gay, ok?’ One of the reasons I wanted to contribute to your project is that you — like many younger folks in my experience, which gives me hope! — are clearly looking for the ‘human’ dimension in all of this, and are NOT getting hung up on straight/gay/etc. So thanks again for asking me to participate — I’m honored that you asked and look forward to reading everyone else who submitted! (And of course the reactions of those who are generous enough to read.)
Melissa and I have been reading Tyler Coates’ blog on Tumblr for years now, and like many people, have always felt like we’ve known him. Like I told him in the interview, whenever we made list of contributors for the book, we always hoped he would be one of them. The short bio in the sidebar on his blog reads, “I live in Chicago. I have a day job, I go to grad school, and I write stuff on the Internet.” We met on gchat today to talk about that last part!
meaghan: So a lot of people affectionately call you Tyler Coates: Man About The Internet. We know it’s sort of a joke but, you really do open up on the internet in a way that makes people feel like they know you.
tyler: I guess! it’s sort of weird to think that, sometimes. The “people who read my blog” are sort of invisible, anonymous people to me? Even though I know a lot of them, I guess. It’s just jarring sometimes to have someone reference something on my blog, and then I have to come to terms (again) with the fact that I DO put a lot about myself on the Internet. Last year at the Tumblr meet-up in Chicago, someone said that they were amazed at how much I reveal about myself on the Internet. And I thought that was so strange, because I didn’t think I revealed THAT much. I’m “introspective” by nature, which is the polite way of saying “self-obsessed.”
meaghan: Ha! Be careful, you are in mixed company!
tyler: hahaha. Well. I say all of that in jest, because I’m beating other people to the punch? Everyone is self-obsessed, but not everyone has a blog. Someone once defending it by saying that I was “thoughtful.” Which I appreciated a lot, and eventually used as one of the three adjectives to describe myself on OKCupid.
meaghan: Ha! So you mentioned recently on your blog how you were understandably hesistant to write so personally for this book.
tyler: Yes, I was a little scared, mostly because I don’t write about sex on my blog.
meaghan: But what put you over the edge and said yes this is something i should do?
tyler:I think my rationale was, “I can’t turn down an offer to be a part of a book, especially if I’m in such good company.” And I think I’m going to have to get used to being a bit uncomfortable with a wider audience reading my writing if I actually want to write for a living. And the story I wrote was also one I’d been wanting to write for a while.
meaghan:It’s funny to me because when we were asking people to contribute, or thinking about people to ask, you were always on our list, from the beginning. Reading your blog made us feel like we knew you and that you had something to say, so to speak. We wanted to see you go there. Even though you never wrote about sex really on your blog, you did touch on dating and relationships.
tyler: Right. Something that I find frustrating is that I feel like I’m seen as this gay guy who is soooooo emotional. Because men, in general, are supposed to be stoic, and, hey, I’ve always been “emotional.”
meaghan: So like when people are like, “Oh you’re so EMO on your blog, you share so much.” It’s just relative to expectations of what a guy should be sharing.
tyler: Yeah! Personally, I hate that word (emo) because it doesn’t MEAN ANYTHING. It’s like “hipster” It’s boring. Come up with a new insult if that’s what you’re getting at.
meaghan: You’re right, now the word “emotional” is an insult. As if having feelings is something to be ashamed of (OY)
tyler: Right! And that’s why I get so confused when people claim I share so much about myself, and they could NEVER do that.
meaghan: It’s an interesting thing, especially with this book— saying, “Yes, I have sex and sometimes have feelings about it,” seems to some people like we are admitting something, when I’m thinking, “Um, we are all Human, remember? This is no secret! I know all of you experience the same thing!”
tyler: I feel like I am distrustful of people who DON’T think about it that way!
meaghan: Who don’t think about sex that way? or Life.
tyler: Right. I overanalyze everything. Once someone told me that he had trouble having a conversation with me because I thought too much about stuff. Which is THE OPPOSITE OF AN INSULT. And, luckily for him, I didn’t talk to him after that.
meaghan: Ha! So a lot of your story is about your first boy experience— what made you want to tell that story, you said you had wanted to for awhile
tyler: Well, mostly because I think it’s funny. Because the other half of the story is about my first STD scare (“Baby’s First STD Scare”), which is always a crowd-pleasing story. I think I wanted to tell the story not because the experience affected me so emotionally (it didn’t, really), but because it is the sort of experience that a lot of people have. I described the story to a lot of friends, and I heard the same thing: “I was so scared after I lost my virginity,” or “I immediately assumed I was pregnant.”
meaghan: yes! there is something in that storytelling, whether it’s over brunch or in a book where when you say it out loud or write it and other people say “Yes! me too!” it’s just the best feeling in the world.
tyler: This isn’t in the story, but when I was freaking over it, my father told me, “When I had sex for the first time, I was TERRIFIED.” Which is a sweet fatherly thing to hear, but also made me want to die because it was coming from MY FATHER.
meaghan: Well now you can hand this story to your children. HAHAHAHA. (God help us) Are you going to let your mom read this?
tyler: Probably not. I may eventually break down and tell her about it, but I don’t think she needs to read it. For one thing, she will figure out who the guy is!
meaghan: Ha! What about the guy?
tyler: I don’t talk to him anymore. I don’t think I talked to him much after we fooled around the one time. We’re Facebook friends!
meaghan: HAH I was just going to ask! Maybe he will buy the book.
tyler: That was why I did not post a link on Facebook!
Early this morning it occurred to me that it is almost March. And the first, next elated thought that followed was: It’s almost time for Coming & Crying to become a real live book!
I’m looking forward to this book more than I am the culmination of friends’ pregnancies (No offense ladies - babies are great). I’m anticipating it not just for the content (though I’m booking plenty of Alone Time In the Bath Tub for reading it) but for the process and what it makes possible.
I think we underplay how significant it is to watch this collection of talented and dedicated women (AND MEN, I know!) create and continue hoisting forward their work. Despite their resources, geographic relevance, fame or lack thereof. In spite of what anyone may think of them, what people will surely say. I’m encouraged by a world where Katie West’s photography and writing will be lauded, where she has the balls to put it out there and keep putting it out there and saying, this is what I do and I’m proud of it. Where Tess Lynch doesn’t have to just be funny, she can damn well write earnestly about handjobs if she wants to. And the list goes on. I don’t know Melissa, but she writes with a matter of fact forthrightness that is convicting, that makes me want to be less flippant, less self-deprecating. And I’m encouraged that we’re listening and considering and not disregarding her or any of these women as sensationalistic; The furthest thing from what they are.
And of course, Meaghan. Of whom I am proud like few other people I know. For her guts and work and focus and transparency. Yeah, it’s not for everyone. I know, I know. Some of us have Grown Up jobs or children or simply value our privacy too much. That’s fine. But there’s something to profoundly admire in how much Meaghan and Melissa and the whole crew believe in this project and are willing to bare themselves because they believe in Conversation. Meag so sincerely regrets the dearth of honest, reverent writing about sex and what an important, complicated, elating, crushing part of our lives it is that she’s going to clamor to correct that it in the public square. And then she’s going to go out and find KickStarter and unflinchingly ask people she knows, loves, doesn’t know, doesn’t like to contribute to this and be a part of it. Both in terms of their finances and their own stories. Because it matters to her. Not just in private, not just in one segmented room of her life. It matters to her no matter where she is and she has the artistic courage and transparency to say that and let the world be damned. To tell her mom and her aunt and her sister about it. The men she’s dated and will date yet. Her employers and her former employers.
She’s unconditionally proud of what matters to her and her ability to write about; How many of us are willing to be that earnest about anything?
Maybe most of all, the thing that kills me is all of these women’s ability to stake a new flag - to say: This is who I am. I am a writer who writes from my guts about Anything I want to say and I won’t cushion it to get some lucrative corporate job with people who wouldn’t approve. Or to ensure that some man won’t think I am too much, too honest, too difficult, too aggressive.
I guess I mean she and so many of the other women in this book are not compromising. And that’s not the entire point of the book but it’s a little manifesto that catches my attention and makes me proud to be a woman, and to have the chance to support them.
So that’s it - that’s my point.
There are only four days left to buy this book. And more importantly, to support a group of writers and artists who aren’t sitting around, remaining limited by convention or conventional publishing or our judgment.
I’m so excited to watch this thing happen. You should be too.