mollypeck:

At first, I thought the backer photos were not included, and I guessed they would arrive later.

Moments later, Katie West nearly fluttered out and down Broadway!

What a beautiful project.

Nikola Tamindzic is a photographer based in New York’s Lower East Side, who is also responsible for the cover of Coming & Crying. I first saw his photos on Gawker & Jezebel, and then darting across Tumblr in rapid reblogs. Though we’ve shared common friends and company (literally, we’ve covered a few parties together for Gawker), how we originally connected was when I modeled for him, a few days after arriving in New York myself.

I’ve already gone a bit into how we began collaborating on Coming & Crying before we knew that’s quite what we were engaged in. For the sake of this public interview, I wanted to ask him more about how he approaches sex in his work, especially in his portraits, because I wished I had the same license myself in my writing — of having the object before you, even if she looks like a person, understood by one’s audience as a model, as a character, even if it’s you. Or in this case, me.

After a twilight discussion in a little bar in the East Village (on shattering champagne saucers, and why it’s possibly ridiculous that my iPhone is what I chose to record this interview on), we got to talk around all of that for about two hours. Here’s the first 12 minutes.

MGG: You said that you don’t really shoot sex, and I agree.

NT: No, I haven’t. I have done that a couple of times, but I didn’t find it terribly interesting. It’s a photographic truth — the whole “Blow Up” thing? The photographer riding the model and like getting good photos? No. You aren’t going to get anything.

MGG: If you’re an actor in it. But you’ve shot couples.

NT: Even with that, I feel like, perhaps I get the most natural results by posing the fuck out of everything, rather than the other way around, when people are really going at it —

MGG: They’re not necessarily present.

NT: That’s just my experience, I didn’t find that — I thought the experience was an end in itself — rather than the photos.

MGG: But watching people having sex, when your job isn’t necessarily to be involved?

NT: Yes, plus, I kill erections — like (*snap*) —

MGG: You kill erections?

NT: Well. Another guy in the room will kill your erection in no time if he’s not involved in any way.

MGG: When I’ve shot people having sex, that was as a pornographer. I had a different set of expectations going in. The couple that I shot was crazy in love, but that wasn’t what was supposed to get on the camera. I wanted it, but I know that only a fraction of my audience in that context would care about anything like that.

NT: But it’s not the kind of process that I’m interested anymore. I think there’s too much process and not enough result. And I may be terribly old-fashioned, by preferring the outcome to the process — like, we all are full of amazing stories about how great the shoot was, and how this interaction was so great, and blah blah blah blah blah, and all we have are three shitty photos to show for it. I don’t really care for that kind of thing. I would like something to be memorable.

So the question is, why do you do this?

MGG: Why do you want to shoot sex?

NT: Why would you want to? Not for your own titillation, because it’s the obvious thing. You can get over that. You want to see if that’s all you’re interested in. You are naturally curious about what lies behind it.

But I feel what lies behind it is what you and I made. What I did in that month with some other people as well — and you’ve seen the other photos so you know where that was going.

What is sex about? It’s about abandon. It’s about something falling out of you — or, into you. Which is why there was — I don’t know how quite to put it, but that slight glistening of water, implying something being born. Your photos were able to go both ways — you were not quite sure if something is being born, or is giving birth.

MGG: Now I can see that, especially in the second one that you posted, that was so hard —

NT: The second one specifically has that thing. Which is why I cared about it. It’s mysterious to me. It’s confusing to me. It was not — it wasn’t even a sexual situation, but I responded to it in that way, because something was happening that was in you.

MGG: And not anything really planned. And that’s the thing which almost makes it more true to sex, rather than going in and saying, we’re going to position you this way, and then turn you this way, and then we’re going to get this…

NT: Yes. It is finding something that would be true to the essence of it, while still going back to the aesthetic that I want to work with. I like sex shot in a blurry, messy way — natural light, maybe black and white — because I think that’s how we experience it. It is a blur. But that’s not what I’m looking for. I might be interested in doing that in 20 years, or two years. But now, I’m interested in this.

I discovered Lou the way we discovered most of our contributors: online. His Tumblr took me to his Flickr, and soon I showed him my secret blog, and we started talking excitedly about collaborating on a project like this one. As I mention below in our IM interview, his photos are honest and compassionate and beautiful— you want to be seen the way Lou sees people. There is an intimacy at work that I hope you’ll find threaded into our book.


meaghan: Hi Lou!
louobedlam: Hi meaghan!
meaghan: It’s funny we are talking on IM for your interview because I remember us IMing for hours before I met you. I had found your work on the Internet, and you mine
louobedlam: we used to IM so hard
meaghan: We did. You were very meta about it— about Getting To Know Someone Online
louobedlam: Getting to Know Someone in person is complex enough. Add in the filters of internet communication? oy veysmer.
meaghan: But then we met! IRL!
louobedlam: i picked you up from the airport. You were adorable.
meaghan: You did! I let a stranger from the Internet pick me up at the airport. (Sorry Mom!) And then you took my picture in the parking lot and I freaked out but it was a nice picture.
louobedlam: I’ve got it on my wall!
meaghan: I’ve got it on my Facebook Wall. It’s actually my Profile Picture. I think that speaks multitudes of your skillz
louobedlam: Aw. That’s awesome
meaghan: Oh yes, tell the fine ppl about your Creepy Polaroid Wall
louobedlam: thanks for putting it in that frame
meaghan: Ha, I’m just here to make you look good
louobedlam: I’ve been taking Polaroids since 1996, been putting them up on my wall about that long. Different apartments, always a wall of Polaroids.
meaghan: Wow! In 1996 I was 12. I was taking— notes in Pre-Algebra.
louobedlam: Thanks. Right now? 1154 or so.
meaghan: Damn! So you share a lot of your work online
louobedlam: online…man, that has really made me the man i am today
meaghan: Would it be fair to say that. the Internet is how most people find your work?
louobedlam: EVERYONE
meaghan: Those of us not so lucky to find ourselvesin your bedroom
louobedlam: Oh, you. Online I find models, the occasional paying gig. Most of the folks I photograph, I found on Flickr or Tumblr. Lots of good folks, lots of good friends.
meaghan: So the internet means a lot to both of us. It’s a nice springboard for meeting people and doing stuff offline, which is where the real magic is
louobedlam: as weird as it is for interpersonal communication, you sure do get to meet MORE people through it
meaghan: Because you can’t take pictures of your computer. Or you could but they would only be so interesting
louobedlam: i like the ladies.
meaghan: I’m glad we cleared that up.
louobedlam: IN CASE ANYONE WAS CONFUSED
meaghan: Dames.
louobedlam: Ladies or dames. Never girls. Never did understand how folks let “girl” just slide into the lexicon, especially folks so intent on properly framing themsevles.
meaghan: You are a stickler for language.
louobedlam: i think it’s important. Words have weight, man.
meaghan: Yes! I think that’s why we want to do this book
louobedlam: People listen to you. You are…A ROLE MODEL
meaghan: EEEP! I remember talking to you about this book a long time ago, when we first started talking. I think finding your work and so many others on flickr and tumblr, showed us all that people were doing real honest, brave work that, well, is really worth something. And! You had made a book before! (ed: Portraits of Pretty People)
louobedlam: i did! There’s definitely something more potent about a physical object.
meaghan: Yes! As photographers well know.
louobedlam: That’s the thing. I don’t know if photographers really value the physical object like they used to
meaghan: But there is nothing like a polaroid (or a wall of 1200 of them!) or hanging up a print on your wall
louobedlam: Nothing like holding the object, the art, in your hands. Being able to affect that—
meaghan: Although, as I’m sure you have experienced, that stuff can be expensive and a lot of work to print, to mail, etc…But it is worth it, right!
louobedlam: Yep, lots of hassle— and well worth it.
meaghan: I think the inherent thing we are all trying to say is, “It is worth it! Remember? This is awesome!”
louobedlam: Making something, the act of creation? there’s nothing like it. And with a physical artifact? You hold it in your hands, you get a sense of the work put in
meaghan: There is a legitimacy maybe?
louobedlam: Yeah, that’s a good word for it. If it’s physical, it exists.
meaghan: The fact that you honored it enough to bring it into the world quite literally
louobedlam: it’s real in a way 1s and 0s aren’t. Exactly.
meaghan: Although we do love 1s & 0s. It’s a complicated relationship for the internet-savvy artist… the web lets us meet all these people, share our work instantly, get support—
louobedlam: Lets us meet and interact and discover and experience, but it’s just a little bit removed from Reality.
meaghan: Indeed. Easy to sit on IM all day and forget to Make Things
louobedlam: Totally. They supplement each other, but neither should be ignored.
meaghan: We are very lucky though to have friends like us who remind each other of that, though.
louobedlam: I don’t think so. It’s not luck. We put it out there.
meaghan: Ah!
louobedlam: We actively seek the kinds of people who’d remind us of these kinds of things. We create, and that helps bring like-minded creators to us.
meaghan: I am reading this Twyla Tharp book, The Creative Habit,  and she says luck plays a role in art but you have to be prepared and be skilled and work hard to recognize when those kind of opportunities arise, and be brave enough to seize upon them.
louobedlam: Totally. You have to be ready for the opportunities.
meaghan: Hooray! Okay last thing. Let’s talk about your photography. I’ve heard you talk about it but maybe you’d be better to elaborate but, your aim is to capture a part of them- to communicate through your work, an intimate part of them or an integral part of their Self that maybe not everyone would see right away?
louobedlam: I try to take honest pictures. I take all kinds of photos now, but the ones I love, the kind I keep coming back to, are the ones where I’m attempting to get something honest, something real, from the model.
meaghan: they seem to be honest, but with a compassion. You look at them and you want to be seen that way.
louobedlam: Yeah, it’s nothing w/o the sharing. For me, sharing it is just as important— the response, how well i was able to communicate what i saw
meaghan: Right. And what about n00dz? I know you have a sort of complicated view of that. You don’t want to take pictures that people just look at because there are boobs there…
louobedlam: Yeah, that one…taking nudes, you know it will attract attention, and a very specific type of attention. Sometimes, nudity is more honest. I think with the women i shoot, it is. But sometimes it’s an excellent way to obscure— there is nudity that can be used as a decoy.
meaghan: Somewhat counter-intuitively?
louobedlam: You’re so busy staring, you don’t notice what’s going on.
meaghan: What do you want people to notice, feel when they see your pictures (nude or no)
louobedlam: i’d like them to come away having been affected- that they see something in the photo that gives them the feeling they get/grok/understand that person,
if only in the moment they were photographed
meaghan: Yes. I think that’s a lot of the reason for this book, too!
louobedlam: My take on the book— it’s trying to put a real, honest, authentic face on something that’s not often gone down those roads. It’s not often you Connect w/erotica. Because it’s poorly written, or fake, or just ridiculous. That’s not the fault of sex, it’s the fault of the writing, of the corrupt intent to titillate instead of affect.
meaghan: Yeah. It’s just different. It’s a hard thing to write about— in that you have to really be vulnerable to do it well.
louobedlam: Isn’t that true for art in general? for really good art?
meaghan: I think so! Like David Foster Wallace said,  to talk out of that part of yourself that can love rather than the part that wants to be loved.
louobedlam: Yeah, that’s a really good quote.
meaghan: *bow*
louobedlam: ahahahha
meaghan: hahahah

I have never met Katie West, but I feel intimately connected to her through her writing and photography. Time and again her work reminds me why we need to do this project. It reminds me that there are people out there doing this, people out there being brave, reporting back as they fumble through life, just like the rest of us. I interviewed her on Gchat because this is the Internet and this is what we do.

meaghan: So you are so far our only photographer AND writer contributor. I think I found you through your photography, but then soon found your writing, and loved that, too.
katiewest: i am multitalented. this is true.
meaghan: Very.
katiewest: ha!
meaghan: I think what’s pretty interesting, or amazing really, is that it’s sort of the same, whether writing or photography, it’s the same You, I tend to be affected similarly. I feel like I am encountering the same Self; a similar vulnerability.
katiewest: Yeah, I think because I use both as a sort of self expression. Though I’ve always liked writing more, but photography is easier.

meaghan: Do you feel that way, that it’s your same Self coming though? I guess it makes sense when you are being very honest in your work, when it’s more than a persona.

katiewest: I think I find writing to be more personal, for some reason. Even though I can tell and show just as much in writing as I can in a photo, it just seems more valuable to me.
meaghan: What scares you more? does anything scare you? When you hit publish do you close your eyes sometimes?
katiewest: Oh my god yes.
meaghan: hahaha ME TOO
katiewest: I keep things in my Draft folder for WEEKS sometimes before i hit publish
meaghan: What do you say to yourself before you hit post or publish or whatever it is? What keeps you going, what’s the pep talk?
katiewest: Well, usually I’ve been looking at it for weeks, changing things, rearranging things. And when I finally realize that the last couple times I’ve looked at it, I haven’t changed anything, I convince myself that it’s okay to hit publish. That maybe someone else might like it. Maybe. But I like it, and I wrote it to be shared so I should just hit publish…..*silence* Okay. Fine. *hits publish*
meaghan: i think people might be surprised to think that we DO sometimes have drafts online
katiewest: yeah, the internet is supposed to be all instant posting, no thinking, no drafts
meaghan: Yea! and as much as the internet allows for that, people certainly respond when we put a little more time, a little more of ourselves, into things. I know I am very thankful when you post a longer story. Ya know? I get excited to see that in my dashboard.
katiewest: The internet responds very intensely to people who put themselves out there onto the internet. You could be generating amazing content on the internet, but when it’s devoid of any information about the creator and of some sort of SELF then people don’t like it as much. It seems….
meaghan: They really do. Yes, I mean what’s the point of this whole democratizing of who gets to share their voice if you don’t take risks with it? and as distant and posturing and ‘clever’ a lot of internet writing can be, I think we have found that people are hungry for those risks. So, do you ever regret stuff— want to take stuff down? I know I have a few times.
katiewest: um, sometimes i’ll think about it if something is really personal and i think the person i wrote it about will realize it’s about them.
meaghan: Hahaha yeaaah.
katiewest: ha, and then i’ll usually email them and say, “hey i know that thing i just wrote seems like it’s about you. but it’s not, okay?”
meaghan: I’m sure they usually know. Haha sometimes I title things, “This is Not About You.” I kind of want to title everything i write that.
katiewest: ha, i know! Because it also happens that i’ll write something, or title a photo something and i get 5 emails asking me if that was about them, and it wasn’t about ANYONE.
meaghan: Ha. Do you ever feel like, “Okay. Here goes. I am choosing my art over this relationship.” Sometimes when i write about someone part of me feels like i am putting the nail in the coffin. Like ol’ Joan Didion said, ‘Writers are always selling somebody out.’ How do you work through that in your head?
katiewest: Ah, yes, i often feel like i’m selling the people i write about out. i’ll try to hide them, mix them up with other people, so no one can find themselves in my work, but everyone can find themselves in my work.
meaghan: But also, everyone can recognize themselves in your work, in that universal way that we are always aiming for. I reconcile that way a lot— that that somehow is worth more. But is it? I am unsure.
katiewest: But i mean, that’s what i want to write about. I want to write about things that affected me. about instances that wore me out, and broke me and that made me feel really fucking horny.
meaghan: I am very glad you want to write about that, and do. Because i think those are the things, the times when people feel most isolated—- The Things We Don’t Usually Talk About. I try to hope, or at least pretend, that they agree, that they think it’s Worth It. And when I know they won’t approve, I remind myself that my writing will always be there for me and that I can’t get that guarantee from them.
katiewest: That’s a good point. i guess it depends on who the person is and how they are. some people i know like it a lot. other people, pretend not to, but do. other people really don’t, but can still appreciate it. And look at how well people respond to Things We Don’t Usually Talk About!
meaghan: Some people like it too much, too. Ha. I had someone recently tell me he wanted to sleep with me so i would write beautifully about it. i told him that was immoral.
katiewest: ha! are you sure?
meaghan: Yes! hahahahahahaa.
katiewest: though sometimes i want to have horrible relationships just so i can write beautifully about them, so…
meaghan: Eep. I think it’s that sometimes i willingly go into things comforting myself with the idea that, even if this is hard, i want to Know.  I want to explore this, because i want to know about people and the world.
katiewest: yeah, i know what you mean. i know when i’m making mistakes, but sometimes do it anyway, just because i want to be there, want to be that girl, want to know if i can. then what do i make of myself?
meaghan: Writing’s our consolation? I guess that’s reductive.
katiewest: hmm…writing’s our no, no i don’t think it’s consolation i think writing’s our i don’t know. i want to say gift, but that sounds not right. It’s how we offer ourselves up to others. It’s how we get through ourselves and connect. We’re a bit fucked up maybe? Communicating with sex and broken hearted mumblings. Because i want to connect. I don’t want to feel alone. i want people to email me after i post something and say yes, that. i know exactly what that feels like. and i sigh and say, look at us! not alone here!
meaghan: I think that’s why writing about sex is so tied up in that, why I feel compelled to report back from the front lines so to speak. because it’s like- guys, world, look, we’re trying, and failing, and also connecting in amazing, transcendent ways, and sometimes not, and sometimes laughing and sometimes not. but we all are! I try to remind myself every time when I am trying to be brave, to remember the deeper you go, the more recognition, the chance at someone saying, Ah! Yes!
katiewest: do people email you and say, “Your work is so…so…human.”
meaghan: Sure.
katiewest: i always liked that. that somehow being human was really hard, and brave, and courageous and took balls.
meaghan: Hah it’s a sad state of affairs when “HUMAN” is this great elusive thing
katiewest: right? but so now being human is being honest and vulnerable and open? letting people reach you?
meaghan: That’s why it’s funny when people make this big thing about talking about sex, about it being so taboo, and i just want to say, THAT IS WHY WE ARE HERE. THIS IS THE DRIVING FORCE OF LIFE. The question isn’t how can we talk about it so openly, it’s how can other people not?!
katiewest: it’s the original SIN, Meaghan. we’re going to HELL. and we’re LADIES.
meaghan: Sometimes when i cringe or second guess myself i just remember, I AM A PERSON. I WILL AFFRONT YOU WITH MY PERSONHOOD. My ‘humanity’ haha
katiewest: we can’t get excited about a cock and describe how it feels when it fills us.
meaghan: Eep! But yeah, people have been getting filled with cocks for millennia.
katiewest: but! you know what we do is different than just describing that, exactly, you know?
meaghan: there should be a DIALOGUE
katiewest: MORE THAN COCK
meaghan: right. it’s the cock, but it’s how you got there and what went through your mind and how you felt after
katiewest: right, like what you wrote the other day about what you were thinking about while he was on top of you, and you were looking at him, squinting wondering if you still knew him, or if you ever did. I loved that.
meaghan: *hopes he isn’t reading this* ahahaaa
katiewest: oh yeah..uhhhhh…
me: So! We have been talking about this whole Coming&Crying thing probably since our first few conversations. We both know this whole, idea of sharing yourself like that, not skipping the good parts, or the scary parts, is important, and I know you are always working to that, towards that, and in that spirit, but why do you think it should be a book?
katiewest: I think for many reasons, not all of them exactly justifiable. But it legitimizes it. Having it in print, even if we do it ourselves, proves we were right somehow. In my brain it does anyway. And I think people like print, the people who need this book like print. They like libraries and look at pictures of bookshelves on their tumblrs and long to have more themselves.
meaghan: Yeah, something about it says, hey! this is real!
katiewest: And I think it has to do with what it’s all about; it’s a way to connect. It’s a very intimate way to connect. Reading a good book on the subway feels very intimate to me. You do it alone, you do it in your own head, but you’re still connecting with something complicated and involved and possibly, possibly life-changing.